Thank you for your courage in sharing this. I too had a mum with severe post natal depression and both her and I were in a psychiatric unit for a while after I was born because she was so unwell.
This was never talked about - of course - and I found out in a roundabout way in drips over the years.
She suffered most of her life with depression - my dad was not kind to her although I of course saw none of that and adored him (until he left after a long standing affair with his secretary 🙄)
I’ve not spoken to my mother for over 9 years - long story of course - after 4 difficult years battling with her after she had a breakdown and bipolar diagnosis. Most of the time I do not know how I feel about her. I’ve lost the mum I loved as a child.
I had post natal depression and found it hard to bond with my son (born by elective c-section). We’re good now but then he is 21!
Friends of mine with an ADHD diagnosis are pretty sure I have it. 🤷♀️
I suspect my son is too. And autistic.
My daughter has autism diagnosis (and traits of ADHD).
Not sure I’ve ever shared all of that before in one place all at the same time.
Those of us familiar with your brilliant work -- three volumes of poetry, "The Marlowe Papers," "Devotion," and the tantalizing "Nothing Becoming" -- can consider ourselves fortunate that abortion was illegal in Washington DC in 1963 and that your Mum couldn't tolerate neat gin. You might well have not been here and we would all be much the poorer for it.
You are a true inspiration. Keep digging, keep unpeeling the layers, stop blaming and finding excuses, dig, dig, dig and yep that about thinking you’ve cracked it then life shows you maybe there’s still work to do. Always work to do!
Whenever you talk about your mum mine comes up but not because she did anything horrible just because I am not close to her but feel I should be. ‘Should’ is always a bit of a red flag for me. Would be interesting what your thoughts are. Am I hiding some deep resentment or something? It doesn’t feel like it. I’m just not close to her. I was extremely close to my dad eventually before he died acutely prematurely.
1. So I love your writing, your honesty and your commitment to grow. I’m biased. 😀
2. Well that bit about needing validation to feel ‘successful’. I’m finally learning to sing and have my first solo gig in about a month and really working through not having to look good, just be, enjoy and it will be what it will be. I probably do have some base work to do in this
3. Not yet
4. Interestingly you said you didn’t even need to forgive your mum. I’m not sure what I think about forgiveness. It feels like almost an arrogant thing. Who am I to think someone needs my forgiveness? I know the power in it is to let yourself be free but yes I am sure that understanding is the key to most painful human interactions. True understanding includes an element of empathy which of course implies putting yourself in the other person’s shoes. There but for the grace of God and all that. I’m not sure you can truly understand someone without having been through a very similar situation yourself hence your ability to understand your mum. I can understand at some level through your powerful words but ultimately there’s still a gap.
The mother wound is so deep. I'm trying to work my way through that one too, generations back as well, just like you. It has helped me to understand how I got into a marriage where I was invisible and only valued for my output (domestic labor). Although I'm thankful that I "think" I'm changing the generational trauma loop (I got out of the marriage!). Thank you for sharing your journey and healing process...I'm learning so much and it helps not to feel so alone.
That’s a hard truth to face, Ros, the prospect that your mother didn’t love you. Brave of you to say it.
At times I knew too much about my parents when I was growing up, and there were surprises, but now (since their deaths, and even before), I just see them as flawed people, as we all are.
Look forward to hearing more about the silent retreat.
This was a fascinating read, Ros. I worked along with you during Ultraworking's pandemic Work Cycles, and I was so excited to find you here! I'm looking forward to knowing more about the retreat, since I, too, have a big mother wound to heal.
Marina! Hello! Ah, I remember those Ultraworking Cycles through the pandemic; how vital they were. Lovely that you found me here. I, too, am awfully glad about the gin. The silent retreat peace is ready to go out next Friday. This was meant to be something of an intro but it got to the point where it had its own pulse and needed to stand alone.
You’ve hit the nail on the head there Ros - this piece having its own pulse and standing alone - because we don’t see this kind of honesty about the lack of a mother’s love. It resonates so deeply and powerfully, I didn’t realise how much I needed it until I read it. My mum fell for me in the 1960s with someone she worked with who was Indian and promised elsewhere. She ran away from home - at 20 - moved 200 miles - away planning to have me adopted the whole time. She said she loved me too much in the end but I’m not sure if my brown skin (in a very white - at that time - south coast town) meant no one else wanted me either. She kept me but resented me all her life and I was definitely no3 of the three children she went on to have. Thank you for sharing your truth. It helps not to feel so alone as Kate says above.
I forgot to say the most important point there - it’s so well hidden from myself - she told me that abortion wasn’t legal until 1967 and she didn’t want ‘a back street one.’ I was born in 1964 and was eight years old when she told me - to explain my different coloured skin to the rest of my family. Everyone could see it from the outside but I never knew my ‘dad’ wasn’t my biological dad until then.
Thank you so much for sharing your story, Anya. I, too, was born in 1964. Wow, your mother told you outright? That must have been so painful. But even if they don’t tell us we weren’t wanted, we know. It’s such a deep pain.
She told me gently in a story kind of way - there was once a lady who was having a baby etc and that lady was her - but you say about feeling her sobbing - and you’re right - we feel it in the womb we’re not wanted. And achieve achieve achieve for those moments of acknowledgment. It must have been very hard for them, but we needed them to see how hard it was for us too.
Is gin actually a particularly abortifacient thing? More than other strong alcohol? This is very hard to google for because all sorts of warnings spring up about drinking while pregnant and nobody particularly wants to encourage pregnant women to seek out methods.
Yes, it’s the juniper berry in particular: even in small doses it can cause uterine contracts and hence miscarriage. I confirmed this by googling “juniper berry toxic to foetus”.
No question about the berry itself but I'm still going "hmmm…"—how much of the active ingredient that makes the juniper berry toxic makes it through to the final gin product? Thujone seems to be the thing, which is more likely found in Absinthe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thujone
Not that it makes any difference to your very moving story, of course, because your mother believed it was true. I'm just engaging with you as a biologist instead of a writer for a moment.
Love it, Noel, thank you! It was one of those “folk wisdoms” passed between women for generations, and I guess there was enough truth in it to stick because of the effect of the berries themselves.
Going fully down the rabbit hole to secondary and references to primary sources:
“An antifertility effect has been described for a juniper extract, administered to rats (300 or 500mg, by mouth) on days 1-7 of pregnancy[7]. An abortifacient effect was also noted at both doses when the extract was administered on days 14—16 of pregnancy[7]. No evidence of teratogenicity was reported. Anti-implantation activity has been reported as 60-70%)[8] and as being dose dependent.[7] Juniper is reported to have both a significant[9] and no[8]) antifertility effect. A uterine stimulant activity has been documented for the volatile oil.”
--
[7] Agrawal OP et al. Antifertility effects of fruits of Juniperus communis. Planta Med 1980; 40 (Suppl. Suppl.): 98-101.
[8] Prakash AO et al. Anti-implantation activity of some indigenous plants in rats. Acta Eur Fertil 1985; 16: 441-448.
[9] Prakash AO. Biological evaluation of some medicinal plant extracts for contraceptive efficacy. Contracept Deliv Syst 1984; 5: 9.
--
Herbal Medicines, 3rd Edition -- Dr Joanne Barnes; Dr Linda A Anderson; Prof J D Phillipson -- Pharmaceutical Press, London, 2007
Not a biologist but a wild plant enthusiast and lover of folklore... Absinthe is made using Wormwood (Artemisa absinthum) which is the "sister" plant of Mugwort (Artemisa vulgaris), also one of the Nine Sacred Herbs to the Anglo-Saxons. Whenever I give someone a homemade mugwort smudgestick I have to warn "not to be used in pregnancy" because it can "bring on menses". In other song folklore... There's a song I sing where a young pregnant woman is being advised to take a "herb that grows in the merry green wood, a herb that grows so grey.... that will twine thy baby from thee.." I always wonder if it means either of the above OR I have concluded it may be wood sage
This was incredibly interesting, Ros. The more I learn about you, the more I learn from you. I look forward to reading more about the retreat. And, of course, I’m thrilled about your letter from John Cleese!
That must've been a hard thing to hear and process. I hadn't known that maternal perinatal depression can cause ADHD. The only thing I was aware from my diagnosis questions was that children born by caesarian are more likely to have it. Are you aware that people with ADHD have a tendency towards abandomment issues? I wonder if that's something that might've made things more difficult as well? (I *definitely* know it's caused me a lot of pain over the years). I'm glad the silent retreat has helped!
It’s part of the Rejection Sensitivity that’s part of the profile, yes? And makes total sense because we get abandoned/rejected a lot, and often feel we are one step away from it happening again.
Thank you for your courage in sharing this. I too had a mum with severe post natal depression and both her and I were in a psychiatric unit for a while after I was born because she was so unwell.
This was never talked about - of course - and I found out in a roundabout way in drips over the years.
She suffered most of her life with depression - my dad was not kind to her although I of course saw none of that and adored him (until he left after a long standing affair with his secretary 🙄)
I’ve not spoken to my mother for over 9 years - long story of course - after 4 difficult years battling with her after she had a breakdown and bipolar diagnosis. Most of the time I do not know how I feel about her. I’ve lost the mum I loved as a child.
I had post natal depression and found it hard to bond with my son (born by elective c-section). We’re good now but then he is 21!
Friends of mine with an ADHD diagnosis are pretty sure I have it. 🤷♀️
I suspect my son is too. And autistic.
My daughter has autism diagnosis (and traits of ADHD).
Not sure I’ve ever shared all of that before in one place all at the same time.
Feels good to get it out
Thank you for sharing all this Jacqui. I genuinely think it’s very good for us to share our experiences this way.
Those of us familiar with your brilliant work -- three volumes of poetry, "The Marlowe Papers," "Devotion," and the tantalizing "Nothing Becoming" -- can consider ourselves fortunate that abortion was illegal in Washington DC in 1963 and that your Mum couldn't tolerate neat gin. You might well have not been here and we would all be much the poorer for it.
This made me feel, fear and cheer for you.
Thank you, Jim x
You are a true inspiration. Keep digging, keep unpeeling the layers, stop blaming and finding excuses, dig, dig, dig and yep that about thinking you’ve cracked it then life shows you maybe there’s still work to do. Always work to do!
Whenever you talk about your mum mine comes up but not because she did anything horrible just because I am not close to her but feel I should be. ‘Should’ is always a bit of a red flag for me. Would be interesting what your thoughts are. Am I hiding some deep resentment or something? It doesn’t feel like it. I’m just not close to her. I was extremely close to my dad eventually before he died acutely prematurely.
1. So I love your writing, your honesty and your commitment to grow. I’m biased. 😀
2. Well that bit about needing validation to feel ‘successful’. I’m finally learning to sing and have my first solo gig in about a month and really working through not having to look good, just be, enjoy and it will be what it will be. I probably do have some base work to do in this
3. Not yet
4. Interestingly you said you didn’t even need to forgive your mum. I’m not sure what I think about forgiveness. It feels like almost an arrogant thing. Who am I to think someone needs my forgiveness? I know the power in it is to let yourself be free but yes I am sure that understanding is the key to most painful human interactions. True understanding includes an element of empathy which of course implies putting yourself in the other person’s shoes. There but for the grace of God and all that. I’m not sure you can truly understand someone without having been through a very similar situation yourself hence your ability to understand your mum. I can understand at some level through your powerful words but ultimately there’s still a gap.
The mother wound is so deep. I'm trying to work my way through that one too, generations back as well, just like you. It has helped me to understand how I got into a marriage where I was invisible and only valued for my output (domestic labor). Although I'm thankful that I "think" I'm changing the generational trauma loop (I got out of the marriage!). Thank you for sharing your journey and healing process...I'm learning so much and it helps not to feel so alone.
It really does help not to feel so alone. We don’t see much honesty about this not being loved by our mothers. I agree.
It is such a hard thing to admit, even to ourselves.
That’s a hard truth to face, Ros, the prospect that your mother didn’t love you. Brave of you to say it.
At times I knew too much about my parents when I was growing up, and there were surprises, but now (since their deaths, and even before), I just see them as flawed people, as we all are.
Look forward to hearing more about the silent retreat.
This was a fascinating read, Ros. I worked along with you during Ultraworking's pandemic Work Cycles, and I was so excited to find you here! I'm looking forward to knowing more about the retreat, since I, too, have a big mother wound to heal.
Glad neat gin is disgusting!
Marina! Hello! Ah, I remember those Ultraworking Cycles through the pandemic; how vital they were. Lovely that you found me here. I, too, am awfully glad about the gin. The silent retreat peace is ready to go out next Friday. This was meant to be something of an intro but it got to the point where it had its own pulse and needed to stand alone.
You’ve hit the nail on the head there Ros - this piece having its own pulse and standing alone - because we don’t see this kind of honesty about the lack of a mother’s love. It resonates so deeply and powerfully, I didn’t realise how much I needed it until I read it. My mum fell for me in the 1960s with someone she worked with who was Indian and promised elsewhere. She ran away from home - at 20 - moved 200 miles - away planning to have me adopted the whole time. She said she loved me too much in the end but I’m not sure if my brown skin (in a very white - at that time - south coast town) meant no one else wanted me either. She kept me but resented me all her life and I was definitely no3 of the three children she went on to have. Thank you for sharing your truth. It helps not to feel so alone as Kate says above.
I forgot to say the most important point there - it’s so well hidden from myself - she told me that abortion wasn’t legal until 1967 and she didn’t want ‘a back street one.’ I was born in 1964 and was eight years old when she told me - to explain my different coloured skin to the rest of my family. Everyone could see it from the outside but I never knew my ‘dad’ wasn’t my biological dad until then.
Thank you so much for sharing your story, Anya. I, too, was born in 1964. Wow, your mother told you outright? That must have been so painful. But even if they don’t tell us we weren’t wanted, we know. It’s such a deep pain.
She told me gently in a story kind of way - there was once a lady who was having a baby etc and that lady was her - but you say about feeling her sobbing - and you’re right - we feel it in the womb we’re not wanted. And achieve achieve achieve for those moments of acknowledgment. It must have been very hard for them, but we needed them to see how hard it was for us too.
Is gin actually a particularly abortifacient thing? More than other strong alcohol? This is very hard to google for because all sorts of warnings spring up about drinking while pregnant and nobody particularly wants to encourage pregnant women to seek out methods.
Yes, it’s the juniper berry in particular: even in small doses it can cause uterine contracts and hence miscarriage. I confirmed this by googling “juniper berry toxic to foetus”.
No question about the berry itself but I'm still going "hmmm…"—how much of the active ingredient that makes the juniper berry toxic makes it through to the final gin product? Thujone seems to be the thing, which is more likely found in Absinthe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thujone
Not that it makes any difference to your very moving story, of course, because your mother believed it was true. I'm just engaging with you as a biologist instead of a writer for a moment.
Love it, Noel, thank you! It was one of those “folk wisdoms” passed between women for generations, and I guess there was enough truth in it to stick because of the effect of the berries themselves.
Going fully down the rabbit hole to secondary and references to primary sources:
“An antifertility effect has been described for a juniper extract, administered to rats (300 or 500mg, by mouth) on days 1-7 of pregnancy[7]. An abortifacient effect was also noted at both doses when the extract was administered on days 14—16 of pregnancy[7]. No evidence of teratogenicity was reported. Anti-implantation activity has been reported as 60-70%)[8] and as being dose dependent.[7] Juniper is reported to have both a significant[9] and no[8]) antifertility effect. A uterine stimulant activity has been documented for the volatile oil.”
--
[7] Agrawal OP et al. Antifertility effects of fruits of Juniperus communis. Planta Med 1980; 40 (Suppl. Suppl.): 98-101.
[8] Prakash AO et al. Anti-implantation activity of some indigenous plants in rats. Acta Eur Fertil 1985; 16: 441-448.
[9] Prakash AO. Biological evaluation of some medicinal plant extracts for contraceptive efficacy. Contracept Deliv Syst 1984; 5: 9.
--
Herbal Medicines, 3rd Edition -- Dr Joanne Barnes; Dr Linda A Anderson; Prof J D Phillipson -- Pharmaceutical Press, London, 2007
Not a biologist but a wild plant enthusiast and lover of folklore... Absinthe is made using Wormwood (Artemisa absinthum) which is the "sister" plant of Mugwort (Artemisa vulgaris), also one of the Nine Sacred Herbs to the Anglo-Saxons. Whenever I give someone a homemade mugwort smudgestick I have to warn "not to be used in pregnancy" because it can "bring on menses". In other song folklore... There's a song I sing where a young pregnant woman is being advised to take a "herb that grows in the merry green wood, a herb that grows so grey.... that will twine thy baby from thee.." I always wonder if it means either of the above OR I have concluded it may be wood sage
Thank you, Julie, that’s fascinating. It’s great to know the folklore about these plants.
This was incredibly interesting, Ros. The more I learn about you, the more I learn from you. I look forward to reading more about the retreat. And, of course, I’m thrilled about your letter from John Cleese!
Hmmm. Not just the love of old MGs then, Ros, that we have in common.
Something is talking quietly, insistent to me here.
I think when we are drawn to certain writers there are often good reasons. We sense a deeper resonance.
That must've been a hard thing to hear and process. I hadn't known that maternal perinatal depression can cause ADHD. The only thing I was aware from my diagnosis questions was that children born by caesarian are more likely to have it. Are you aware that people with ADHD have a tendency towards abandomment issues? I wonder if that's something that might've made things more difficult as well? (I *definitely* know it's caused me a lot of pain over the years). I'm glad the silent retreat has helped!
It’s part of the Rejection Sensitivity that’s part of the profile, yes? And makes total sense because we get abandoned/rejected a lot, and often feel we are one step away from it happening again.
I could have written this 😅 We have a very similar background. It's almost creepy.
Ah my ADHD pal! Yes, there is something of a shared profile for those of us who share this wiring.
Absolutely, but this is a little too specific let's say 😂
You’ve got me very curious. Is it the gin?
Not that, but my mom told us that 'she never wanted three kids', and just the whole thing about your relationship with her is exactly the same.
Fascinating stuff. I do think the ADHD link to being unwanted is very high.
Yep. But I hear from some ADHDers that their childhood was peachy 🤷♀️
What courage it took to share this. Very powerful!